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ISP Rise Against P2P Users
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Sunday April 16, @11:29AM
from the takers-and-givers dept.
from the takers-and-givers dept.
bananaendian writes "Spencer Kelly from BBC's Click program writes about the emerging backslash against high bandwidth P2P users. Apparently it has been estimates that up to one third of internet's traffic is caused by BitTorrent file-sharing program. Especially ISPs who are leasing their bandwidth by the megabyte are more inclined to resort to 'shaping your traffic' by throttling ports, setting bandwidth limits or even classifying accounts according services used. What is your ISPs policy regarding P2P and is it fair for them to put restrictions and conditions on its use."
ISP Rise Against P2P Users
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Re:did anyone honestly fail to see this coming?
(Score:5, Funny)P2P: Forward slash. Riposte.
ISP: Touche. QOS Packet Filtering!
P2P. Lunge. Encryption!
ISP: En guard. Subpoena compliance.
P2P: Aahaaah! Ubiquitous Mesh Networks.
ISP: Arrrgh! [dies].
Where is BadAnalogyGuy when you need him?
Re:did anyone honestly fail to see this coming?
(Score:5, Funny)(http://singinst.org/)
I think I've made my point-by-car-analogy quite clear.
That's nothing
(Score:4, Informative)(http://caffeination.net/)
However, I am not a grammar or spelling nazi. I love Slashdot just as it is, warts and all. I make spelling and grammar mistakes all the time [slashdot.org]. I just wanted to play at being an anal dickhead for a moment, just to see how it felt.
Just so I understand...
(Score:5, Insightful)I mean, seriously, why did they think customers wanted 5Mb/s? So they could download movie previews from the QT website?
Seriously, somebody explain their business plan to me.
Re:Just so I understand...
(Score:5, Insightful)(http://www.yafla.com/dforbes/ | Last Journal: Tuesday September 27, @11:43AM)
Ummm, yes? Most high speed users are burst high-speed users, who get on their PC and browse around YouTube and other high bandwidth sites, and then "log off" and go about their life. They don't sit sucking 100% of the capacity around the clock, but when they do the high bandwidth is very beneficial.
The reality is that it is grossly economically unsustainable for someone to max out their connection perpetually, which is why many high speed providers have had max throughputs per time period since their inception (cue someone complaining about some provider that never did, yet a lot did. Up here in Canada, the major cable providers that operated under the @Home banner always listed a max throughput, beyond which they can assess additional charges, or disconnect you, or force you to upgrade to a much more expensive service if you want to continue).
My car might have 255HP, and while that helps me pass trucks and merge onto highways better, it doesn't mean that I drive around the clock with the pedal pushed to the floor.
Re:Just so I understand...
(Score:5, Insightful)Your car's maximum power output not being used all the time (i.e. a mechanical device, that suffers wear and tear, used in a transport system that's controlled by a bunch of independant and variously-skilled drivers) has absolutely nothing to do with not using networking connections full time at 100% data rate. The latter is because of business economic reasons, since networks have:
a) no loss incurred by running at 100% over 10% capacity (assuming reasonably decent routers, and ignoring the pretty-much-spurious congestion hassles at the routers) - compared to the car analogy, at least, and...
b) no such things as "poor drivers". "Poor drivers" could only be broken routers, which would be removed from the network and replaced as soon as they're found. On the other hand, you have to live with "poor drivers" in the car system regardless of the fact that *they* should arguably be removed from the system.
Death to the car analogy!!!
Re:Just so I understand...
(Score:5, Funny)(http://caffeination.net/)
Re:Just so I understand...
(Score:5, Interesting)On an ISP scale, you _never_ want to get to the point where you are using 100% of your bandwidth, because the network will slow down to a crawl. All of your customers who play online games, have Vonage, or just browse the web will immediately start complaining, because those services simply aren't usable when the network is congested. Neither car engines nor networks are designed to run at 100% load, all the time. The exact reasons may be different, but the analogy itself is spot-on.
Re:Just so I understand...
(Score:5, Informative)Re:Just so I understand...
(Score:5, Insightful)(http://www.eyrie.org/~robotech/index.html | Last Journal: Thursday August 26, @01:10PM)
Come to think of it, banks work that way, too; they lend out most of what they take in so they actually have relatively little cash on hand. If a run starts on the bank, then they run out of cash very quickly.
It's a highly efficient way of maximizing use of resources when it is not expected that everyone will want to use those resources to capacity at once--but it only works when there isn't a reason to use them to capacity.
The irony is that until BitTorrent, broadband was having a hell of a time getting people to sign up--because, after all, what would they need it for? And now that there's actually a "killer app," people are signing up so fast and using so much that it's causing a "backslash" (heh heh). Either feast or famine, nothing in-between.
Re:Just so I understand...
(Score:5, Insightful)(http://jvillalobos.blogspot.com/)
It is true that they shouldn't expect their users to suck all of their capacity around the clock, but I don't think that gives them the right to enforce measures for them not to do it. They offered a service that allowed their users a certain bandwidth, usually around the clock, and the (note: paying) subscribers have the right to use as much as they want from that service.
I agree that it is not feasible to maintain such a service under the assumption that many subscribers will be sucking the life out of it 24 hours a day, but that is a problem of the ISP. If they want to offer a more restrictive service, then they should inform their subscribers of what they are receiving for their money. As far as I know, they offer a fixed bandwidth which is available throughout the day. If that is so, then subscribers should get exactly that and they shouldn't be blocked or filtered because of their activities.
If they want to change the rules of the game, they should put them on paper.
The way I see it...
(Score:5, Insightful)(http://www.seanharlow.info/ | Last Journal: Wednesday July 28, @11:53PM)
If I'm on a residential connection, I can expect to not get full speed during peak times due to overselling, but if I can download HTTP at the full 8mbit but only 2mbit from a torrent, something is wrong.
Hopefully users of the ISPs that do this will choose to switch, though I'd imagine that the choices are limited in many areas.
Re:The way I see it...
(Score:5, Interesting)Just curious, have you ever read the service contract with your ISP? I know I haven't. My guess would be that they include a paragraph to the tune of, "If the user is doing something we don't like, we can do whatever we want about it."
Re:The way I see it...
(Score:5, Insightful)Re:The way I see it...
(Score:4, Insightful)(http://www.devdas.geek/)
Re:The way I see it...
(Score:5, Insightful)(http://www.haeleth.net/)
Well, no, actually. That claim is easily proven to be false: they can't use their network to sell child porn, therefore they can't do whatever they want with it.
They can do whatever they want within the limits of the law and the constraints of the contract they have signed with you.
If you have agreed in your contract that they can throttle your usage or restrict certain types of traffic, then they can do that. On the other hand, if they have foolishly agreed to supply you with a certain level of connectivity regardless of what you are using it for, then they cannot simply turn around and say "oops, we've changed our minds" -- they took your money, and that means they are obliged to give you what you paid for.
I suspect most, if not all, of the contracts people have agreed to do permit the ISP to change the terms of service and do permit the ISP to restrict traffic based on what the ISP decides is reasonable. In which case, yes, they can do that. But please don't spread the dangerous myth that ownership of property allows you ultimate power over that property. It doesn't. Every right has responsibilities attached.
No problem
(Score:5, Insightful)Re:No problem
(Score:5, Insightful)Believe it or not, this is what many service providers would like you to do. If you're the kind of person who wants to eat $200 of steak all week long at the $5.95 buffet, we'd gladly help you go patronize someone else.
I'm the senior network engineer for a regional broadband operator. We were first to activate service in our region and had many heavy-use customers sign up along with the rest. Because we rate-limit P2P (as clearly explained in the service agreement and website FAQ), we saw about 8% to 10% of our customer base leave when the incumbant local exchange provider (ILEC) finally activated DSL.
I always found it amusing to see the ILEC do their dog and pony show when they had zero customers on the local DSL network. They'd feed the community with either a fractional T1 or at best, two T1's bonded. The speeds in their little demo trailer were impressive at first.
Then the P2P abusers would switch. Three months later, you'd see peak hour speeds of around 60 to 110 kbps - instant ISDN! Then we'd start getting calls from the abusers telling us we could have their business back ($35-$40 a month), but ONLY if we opened up P2P. The reality was our rate-limited P2P was ultimately faster than the unpoliced nasty DSL network that died when a handful of P2P servers lit up and consumed most of the bandwidth.
I've seen some pretty hilarious emails passed on from customer service, from the threats to file a class action lawsuit because we wouldn't permit unrestricted P2P (from people that had left us to go to a DSL network that was a disaster), to explanations that a customer's request should never be ignored if we are a good company. We'll even get the occasional Better Business Bureau complaint because we rate-limit. I've even seen explanations that we should charge everyone more money to subsidize the few abusers - apparently nobody wants to use their own money to pay for their P2P habit.
The funny thing is that we have a standard response that provides these customers with a connection that doesn't have the rate-limiting for about $200 per Mbps, with a guaranteed SLA. When you're delivering this to rural communities, $200/Mbps is pretty incredible and it's darn near our cost to get it there. Yet we never have takers on it - P2P hogs expect to dine for close to free.
Ultimately you have a choice: you can please 85% of your customers with well engineered traffic, and send the 10% abusers and 5% financial deadbeats to the competition, or you can please the losers and send away the good customers. If you want to stay in business, you know what the right decision is.
Re:No problem
(Score:5, Funny)(http://joe-baldwin.net/)
Gee, I'd never expect that people too cheap to buy their own CDs and DVDs wouldn't want to pay more to get them for free.
I am SHOCKED, SHOCKED to learn
(Score:4, Funny)This can be fixed
(Score:5, Insightful)(http://www.mcgroarty.net/)
Yes it can, and here's a paper on it
(Score:5, Informative)(Last Journal: Wednesday February 19, @03:29PM)
Re:This can be fixed
(Score:4, Informative)(http://www.xenoveritas.org/ | Last Journal: Monday January 30, @10:17AM)
To the best of my knowledge Azureus doesn't yet, but intends to. You can read about their Vivaldi system [aelitis.com] on their wiki. (Version as of the time I posted [aelitis.com].) It's designed to compute nodes that are close to each other so that Azureus can pick closer peers.
However, they don't actually use it yet, according to that page. But there is work towards it.
Inevitable
(Score:5, Insightful)(http://jamesholden.net/)
Bandwidth isn't free, and while you always have the chance to move to a different ISP if you don't agree with traffic shaping, ultimately there won't be any ISPs left who either a) traffic shape or b) have gone bankrupt.
Broadband is a contended service and a lot of people seem to forget that. Sure, you can get an uncontended connection to do what you want with, but be prepared to spend £1000+ per month for it.
Thinking it's reasonable to max out your connection 24x7 is about as reasonable as walking into an all-you-can-eat restaurant with a spade and wheelbarrow. You could hardly complain about being thrown out.
Re:Inevitable
(Score:5, Funny)I mean that would be the most blatant case of fraudulent advertising since my suit against the film, ``The Never-Ending Story''.
Re:Inevitable
(Score:4, Informative)"All you can eat" does not mean "all you can take home". "Unlimited use high-speed connection" DOES mean "unlimited use".
Sorry... but that's not the way it should be.
(Score:5, Insightful)(http://timburrell.net/)
I myself am I high usage person. But I know this, and I'm okay with it. If an ISP doesn't like me using so much bandwidth they call me up and complain and I respond with "Sure no problem, I've got more money, take some of it, because I want to use more bandwidth." Traditionally in the past they've told me "UUUhhh we can't do that, you have to use less bandwidth!"
WHAT?!
Fortunately things are starting to change. I'm not paying my service provider extra fees for extra bandwidth and we're both happy.
I personally see the future going with zero restrictions, but people paying for the usage. This is the only way it will go, with companies that have attitudes like yours going bankrupt.
You're forgetting that people actually WANT to use these services. It's not your companies right to refuse them. It IS however your companies duty to its shareholders to come up with a way to satisfy market demands... and unthrottled P2P is one of them!
Quit thinking like a mindless zombie and get with the times!
Here's what we do:
(Score:5, Insightful)(http://www.numbski.net/ | Last Journal: Thursday May 26, @11:44PM)
Second, yes, we shape traffic. VOIP traffic gets top priority, ssh second, http third, and bittorrent, or any other p2p app get the lowest priority.
These prioritizations are shared across our client base. That way, if anyone is doing ANYTHING that isn't p2p, it gets priority over p2p traffic. We think this is fair. If you want to run your p2p app overnight when no one else is on, then have fun. If you're doing it during the day, don't expect to get priority over everyone else. Note that we DO offer to sell dedicated services, and we do note up front to our customers that what we sell them is BURSTABLE throughput and that they are buying something like 256k symmetrical dedicated, and the 1.5MB/768k is burst. they aren't buying that in dedicated chunks. If they want dedicated, we can sell them that, but they have to pay for it.
It just doesn't make sense to pay for 1.5Mbit symmetrical dedicated unless you're going to saturate that pipe ALL THE TIME.
So far, no complaints.
Nope
(Score:4, Insightful)Look at it like this. I pay ISP for BW. I use BW. Because I use paid for BW, ISP lowers it. I can't honestly give my money to anyone ISP that does that.
I live in an apartment complex and we are allotted 500mb/24 hours otherwise traffic to our computer is put on a "lower priority" flag. I assume their logic is to prevent downloading of movies and